04 Sep 2016 14:28:27
Degsy, our squad deteriorated? Could you expand on that point please.
04 Sep 2016 16:14:05
No problem, but before I start please remember it is about opinions. Firstly, immediately prior to Martinez taking over, we had Distin, Anichebe, Osman, Pinaar, Donavon, Neville, Rodwell, Saha, Naismith, Jelavic, Yobo, Cahill, Heitinga, Howard and Fellaini, Stones and Hibbert. This was part of our 2012 squad.
When Martinez arrived he either allowed all these players to be sold or retire. Admittedly there was an overlap where Moyes sold a couple of these just prior to Martinez arriving. These were replaced over a period with Joel, Alcaraz, McGeady, Kone, Eto'o, Lennon, Cleverly, Besic, Barry, McCarthy, Deulofeu, Mori, Atsu and of course Lukaku. Some of these have already retired or been moved on. But in my humble opinion, the first group of players look much stronger than the second group. Lukaku aside, I feel the first group of players have goals throughout. whereas the second group just don't have goals except for Lukaku and Mori.
04 Sep 2016 20:43:28
Degsy look up my previous posts if you want. I'd say no one on here mentions that everyone is entitled to their opinion any more than I do.
Fair enough you think there is more goals in that first group. I don't agree. In terms of which group has the better footballers I would agree the first group is slightly better even though I can't see where more goals would come from them.
Martinez did sign some awful players but he also signed some brilliant players. The first group in my opinion is a steady group of players where as the second is more up and down group. I've said before I far rather Moyes but I call it as I see it. Imho (in my humble opinion - which is in plenty of my posts) there is no player in the first group who are better signings than Barry or Lukaku.
Barry has been fantastic and Lukaku even though he was our record signing has seemingly doubled in value. Which comes in handy for the financial fair rules you were talking about. But that's a different conversation all together.
There is goals in Del boy, Lennon and Eto'o along with plenty of assists. I also see you've ommited Barkley. Not signed by Martinez I know but he hardly played previously and is very much part of the squad.
That brings me back to my original question. I don't really think you answered it. Yea you compared the different players but deteriorated squad? I can't see it. We signed 4 players and have 25 players named along with 3 under 21 players I think it is. 28 players don't agree that is deteriorated.
I think the opposite in fact. Imho the squad is stronger now than it was one year ago. Yes 4 players signed but nothing wrong with the rest of the squad as a whole. Like every team there is some stragglers. You'll always have that. You'll also always have a turnover of players.
I've said myself we were heading for relegation under Martinez and I never liked that he was our manager. It was more the use of the players at his disposal, his team tactics and overall approach I had a problem with.
For example Mirallas was very wrongly frozen out. Howard was kept on too long. Too much reliance on Lukaku and not enough team tatics to get midfield more involved with scoring goals. Not that they hadn't potential, it was his set up that didn't include them in scoring goals as much as it should have or could potentially have. The whole attitude of the team looked unprofessional and far too nice.
A bit of bite and meanness back in the team now. Badly needed. I expect our squad to be even better this time next year. It will build on a very good core of young players like Barkley, Lukaku, Del boy, Holgate, Galloway, Davies, Dowell even Mori and McCarthy who are still only 25.
04 Sep 2016 22:02:09
I won't go into too much detail but I'd say the two teams are a flip of a coin.
Rodwell, Saha, Pienaar and Victor spent more time on the treatment table than playing. I'd take Barry over Neville. Jelly as much as I love him was woeful after them 1st six months. Felli wanted out and we got Rom. We haven't replaced Naisy I'll admit. We've just got stek to replace Howard.
It's just a bit irrelevant. They were aging and needed replacing or wanted out.
As for goals I've put it up before check the records. The teams for the past three years scored reletively the same amount of goals as any season since 1986. The goals against caused all of the issues.
04 Sep 2016 22:26:14
I'd agree with pretty much all of that BlueJohnUns.
05 Sep 2016 08:57:02
There were goals from Cahill, Osman, Pienaar, Anichebe (but not many) Donavon, Saha, Jelavic and Felli. Ok Naisy is in both groups. Deulofeu has very few goals in him.4 in 43 games for us so far. admittedly some as sub. Relative to their positions. the ones I list above out score the second group substantionally. Look them up and do sums. Only Lukaku and Mori score well for their relative positions. Barkley does too. but on that point I have already said Martinez put too much responsibility on him as a youngster. He looked lost last season at times and ended up being booed by our own fans. But like I said. this is my opinion (except for the goals stats) in fact. Cahill 68 goals, 43 goals, Fellaini 25 goals, Saha 27 goals, 33 goals, Anichebe 18 goals, Jelavic 16 goals, Yobo 8 goals. That is 238 goals. That IS MY POINT! Now compare the other lot. Alcaraz 0, McGeady 1, Kone 6, Eto'o 3, Lennon 5, Besic, Barry, McCarthy, Cleverly, Deulofeu etc less than 12 between them. that's a total of 27. So yes some are still playing but my point (and it is a fact) that these previous players had goals all through their respective Everton careers. The second group have 10 times less goals. That is why I say the squad deteriorated. No doubt you will pick one small point out of my post and distract by focussing on it but you cannot deny that the first lot have substantionally more goals throughout the squad. Yes Barkley chipped in with 8 last season. but he was here under Moyes but was stilltoo young to play regularly. Yes Lukaku willalways score 20+ a season and that's Martnez's one piece of brilliance. Back to the beginning. we were comparing squads not one individual.
05 Sep 2016 09:46:18
NBTB not sure what happened to my post. the players were typed in with goals alongside. but back to your point which I did not answer. I think you misunderstood what I was saying. when I said the squad deteriorated. I really meant up until Martinez was sacked. I believe the 4 signings (5 including the Sheffield kid) are 1st team players that will strengthen us and the tide has indeed turned. I have made this point so many times and if you look at the sums, there is no arguing the facts. The players in the first group (from Moyes days) were replaced by the second group by Martinez. The first group outscore the second group by at least 5 to 1 andpossibly as high as 10 to 1. Yes Del boy is young and still playing but even he has so far mustered only 1 in every 10 apperances. A grand total of 5 goals in 2 spells with us. Mori and Lukaku are the only ones who score well for their respective positions (Barkley aside because he was starting to play before Martinez came and was not a Martinez signing. let's drop it now though I feel like a long player record that's stuck!
05 Sep 2016 13:08:48
Degsy I am not going to look up the goals scored by all them players and add etc. That would take far too much time which I don't have. I spend too much time on this site as it is. Didn't even add up your goals there either. You have goals in your first group with no names beside them so I don't know what the point is there.
I still don't agree with the goals thing. Mainly because you give absolutely no relevance to how long these players were at the club. Cahill scored what was it 68 goals you say. Over how long a period? Tham near more than the second group of players combined. You can't add up goals in that point without giving time a reference. Your point is totally biased.
Anyway I'm sick of it too. Main point I make is Koeman will get far better results out of the same players. Signed 4 players granted but this needed to be done regardless with the amount of retired players that left.
You put our failings down to the players this last couple of years. I put it down to the manager more or less. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
05 Sep 2016 13:23:49
Degsy you are looking at them individually. As a TEAM we scored on average the same amount of goals for the last 30 years. BUT we CONCEDED almost 15 to 20 more over the last two. Do you think scoring goals was our problem last season or do you think our defending was atrocious?
Martinez team got 61/ 48/ 59 in league goals. Moyes last three years and probably his best sides got 51/ 50/ 55. That's 168 Martinez and 157 Moyes. 12 more goals.
Defending: martinez 38/ 56/ 55. Moyes 45/ 40/ 40. Martinez 139 moyes 125. 14 mores goals.
Finally Moyes only reached 60 goals once. 48/ 38/ 45/ 34/ 52/ 55/ 55/ 60/ 51/ 50/ 55.
05 Sep 2016 13:46:45
sorry Martinez conceded 149 and not 139 and it was 24 more goals.
05 Sep 2016 14:10:40
Good points there BlueJohnUns and it shows where the problem is. Conceding goals not scoring them. I would view that this is because of the set up Martinez had.
Degsy's main point from what I gather is that not enough goals under Martinez were scored from midfielders and the players he left.
I agree to a point but don't think its the players fault or their cause. My point is that was the way they were told to carry out games and that Lukaku was looked to, to score the goals.
Degsy simply thinks the midfielders are not capable of scoring goals. I disagree and think under Koeman they will once they have the opportunity to. As tactics will change and Lukaku will not be looked upon as much as he was under Martinez to score goals.
I guess time will tell. Degsy has his mind made up as have I. We'll just have to agree to disagree.