Everton banter 40943

 

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24 Dec 2017 12:43:02
Here is something to think about.

I understand you doubters out there and the thought that we should give Big Sam more time before you are all prepared to pass judgment.

Whilst this is very commendable it is also making you look very hypocritical. If Sam had LOST the last six games would the same doubters be asking for more time or would they now be saying he is the wrong choice and should be sacked.

You ask for more time when the situation suits you, not when the situation warrants it, that is wrong.

Agree2 Disagree2

24 Dec 2017 14:37:42
Hi Grumpy mate as usual a good post mate, you said it as it was on the tin, we could win everthing going and we would still have those CRAZY POSTS on here that we are not playing right yawn yawn yawn, i really think mate that what is REALLY hurting these moaners is that they have now NOTHING to moan about, Big Sam has come in done a fantastic job with fantastic tactics when needed, and a great backroom staff, just hope my Christmas Present this year is for Big Sam to be given an EXTENDED CONTRACT by Mr Moshiri in gratitude of keeping us up and instilling belief in the lads on the pitch and soon to have great footy back at Everton, just remind me Grumpy is it SIX GAMES AND NO DEFEATS, i rest my case, Happy Christmas and New Year mate,

24 Dec 2017 14:49:32
If Allardyce had lost the last 6 games, he would have failed to deliver the part of the package that everyone was pretty certain he could. Delivery of the more expansive football for which he has little track record would be even less certain than it is now.

24 Dec 2017 15:15:32
Well said mate sensible post.

24 Dec 2017 18:01:16
Good replies Glennk and as usual GB.

24 Dec 2017 19:50:06
Worcester these schools are terrible in my days
Mate they have left me hanging on the spelling side
I was good in PE tho 👍🏻👍🏻😂.

24 Dec 2017 22:24:47
It's a results game and where getting results.

24 Dec 2017 22:26:00
GuernseyBlue and Grumpytoffee, we all get that you are both extremely pro Allardyce but I am very confused as to why you both seem to be taking delight in attacking anyone who isn't and seem to think that long term questions about his suitability don't exist.

Allardyce and his managerial team have done a wonderful job so far. They have addressed the key short term problems, got good results and done exactly what they were employed to do, namely, get Everton out of the relegation fight and looking upwards rather than downwards.

That said, it is not hypocritical and a perfectly valid opinion to still be sceptical about Allardyce's long term suitability for the club. I am one of those people who is concerned about our future playing style. For now I accept it is clearly a secondary issue and while I don't particularly like Allardyce's personality I have liked pretty much all of what he has said since taking the job.

He has clearly said how the playing style must improve as he gets time with the players on the training pitch and when he gets some key players back and/ or buys new players. There are many different styles and it doesn't have to be a Pep Guardiola style that we adopt but whatever style it is we have to at least be effective with the ball.

At the moment against the teams we want to compete against we are nowhere near effective with the ball. Being a defend first and counter attack team would be great if we are effective and dangerous at counter attacking against the top sides. If he can achieve that (or any effective attacking style) then fantastic. He will be worthy of an extended contract. If he can't achieve that then I would want him replaced because it isn't good enough (in the long term) against the top 6 to just shut up shop and hope to hold on for 90 mins.

I think the key question is how much better the attacking effectiveness needs to get and how long does he get to show progress in what is a sport with ridiculously short timelines and expectations. I don't expect miracles but (no matter how welcome yesterdays result was at this present moment in time) I would be very disappointed about going into next season with Allardyce in charge if we are still producing the same ineffective attacking football as we did yesterday at the end of this season.

I think the people who just assume that Allardyce will deliver a more expansive style are as deluded as the people who are convinced he won't - narrow mindedness from both sides. Allardyce isn't as regressive as his detractors say but he isn't as forward thinking as his cheerleaders argue. He is certainly exactly what we need in the short term but time will tell whether he can be the manager we need in the long term - despite my displike of him I hope he can be because it will mean we are progressing as a club.

I must admit I didn't want Allardyce as the manager but I have so far been proven wrong by his results, that doesn't necessarily mean he is the long term answer. It isn't being negative or being a "moaner" to believe that in the short term he has been fantastic but that the jury is still out on his long term suitability. It is also getting quite tiresome seeing posts from you both berating anyone who dares to be critical about anything regarding Allardyce.

24 Dec 2017 22:44:36
I hear what your saying toffeebuds and I agree with 99% of it.

Thing is, I get why GuernseyBlue and Grumpy are annoyed. They are annoyed listening to people that won't give Big Sam a chance. Its like the law, innocent until proven guilty. Whereas it looks like the opposite to that for our new manager. A lot seem to think he is guilty until proven innocent.

Give the guy a chance and accept that he may being the best out of Everton. I'm by no means saying he's our saviour but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. Giving him every chance. Not saying I hope he's not here next season before he even gets a chance.

As a reminder I did say I agree 98% with your above comment. Very well said. He may not be able to bring us much further. We all get that too. That can be annoying to listen to as well. It was all that was on here for a long time too.

Imho its GuernseyBlue and Grump's way of saying they had to put with it for a long time.

24 Dec 2017 23:33:24
I completely agree that he must be given a chance to show that he can be our future.

He has never managed to take a club forward to the point of being able to compete toe to toe with the big teams, that doesn't mean he can't do that now with us.

A few good results now doesn't mean he will be able to do that, but equally the few poor "style" performances we have seen with an unbalanced squad lacking in confidence certainly doesn't mean that he can't. The clubs development will take time and he has to be given that opportunity.

Any of us thinking we know what Allardyce can be for Everton in the long run (one way or the other) after a handful of games is niaive. I was gutted when he was given the job and like I said before I don't particularly like the arrogant way in which he carries himself. That said, I have been extremely impressed with what he has said in every interview/ press conference he has given and more importantly the affect he has had on the club so far. He has certainly won me over in the short term and now we wait and see what he can deliver in the long term. I truly hope he can be the manager we need him to be and the manager he believes he is himself.

The only other thing I would add is that even if he doesn't succeed in getting us into a "Top 7" it won't make him a bad manager. It is a massive job in today's game to break into that elite group. Those teams above us have more money than us (even with the fantastic addition of Moshiri) and are better able to attract the top players because they are already established as elite teams.

The only way we will break into that group is by buying/ discovering young players with huge potential and then developing them and add the odd top quality ready made player when we can (which is more or less what Spurs have done over the last 5 or 6 years and looking at our recruitment over the last 18 months seems to be what we are trying to do) .

The U23s and Unsworth have been absolutely fantastic but so far we have developed some very good premier league squad players (which is an impressive achievement in itself) . To take that next step we need 3 or 4 of the likes of Kenny, Calvert-Lewin, Davies, Lookman, Vlasic, Holgate, Beningame, Pickford etc to become truly elite players.

I am hopeful some of them can because they have been really impressive at times and seem to have fantastic attitudes and work ethic. I get the impression developing players and getting the best from them is a strength of Allardyce and his coaching team so hopefully that will stand us in good stead. It is certainly something that has been important in the Everton way of doing things so hopefully that helps too.

If we get lucky enough (or make our own luck by recruiting effectively enough) and 3 or 4 of them turn into world class players then we have a great chance of competing with the best. If we don't manage that then we will always be playing catch up and only ever serving up valiant rear guard defensive performances against the best teams. The key man in our clubs future isn't just Big Sam, it is also Steve Walsh (and the rest of the team behind the scenes) . I think how Big Sam and Steve Walsh interact and work together will be the key factor in whatever future success we can achieve.

25 Dec 2017 09:33:00
Top post toffeebuds! I could pretty much write that myself seeing that I agree with everything. I reread my post above. I took away 1% from the beginning to the end of post haha.

I especially agree with your outlook on how we stand against the rest and how to move forward. It seems to be the way things are going too.

Big Sam did take Bolton to Europe. Didn't he finish 4th with them? Started at the bottom with them. I'm not arguing with you about it. Point is if he can do it with them I have no doubt he can do it with us. Even if it was a while ago.

I'm not saying he defiantly will. Just that its possible. I guess time will tell and all will be revealed. Everyone will be wiser then.

Happy Christmas toffeebuds. Your outlook on a lot of things seem to be similar to mine. Weigh up the pro's and con's. Hopefully in 2018 Everton will have more pro's!

25 Dec 2017 13:29:36
WOW

Toffeebuds what a great couple of posts, I really enjoyed reading them and would be happy to see similar posts on these forums.

NBTB has hit the nail on the head, I can't speak for GB but I am sick to the back teeth of people who are already condemning Sam, I also understand that he may not be our long term answer, but it would be wrong of Everton as a club if we did not at least give him next season to see what he is actually capable of whilst managing a big club such as Everton.

I don't really want my posts to look as though I am attacking, but I do see why they can look like that, Whilst people continue to not give Sam a chance, then I will continue to cast out the line with some nice juicy bait on it, I always have someone that bites as well as a few nibbles. I think I can say with confidence I am not afraid to offer my views even if they go against the majority and I stick to them, I don't tend to change them because the crowd think something else. I can't speak for GB, but have chatted with him, but I think his reasons are the same as mine. Nothing beats armchair fishing.

I wish both you and NBTB along with your families a very happy Christmas.

26 Dec 2017 12:14:53
Fair enough. I probably did misinterpret your posts and bite a little on some of that bait that you put out there. It did seem to me like you were attacking people for having differing opinions which always drives me crazy but I apologise for coming on a bit strong.

I certainly agree with your sentiment that Sam needs time to hopefully be the success we want him to be. If he goes the same way as the last 2 it would be a pretty disappointing place to be after 2-3 years of Moshiri. As he said in a previous AGM we have a window to grab onto the shirt tails of the elite teams because the gap gets bigger each year.

I think those making the decisions at the club will see enough of Allardyce behind the scenes over the next 6 months to have a good idea of whether he can take things forward next year. A lot will then depend on what big name managers are looking for work at that point and what big clubs are looking for managers.

It will also be important how he and Steve Walsh are working together, assuming Walsh still has significant power at the club. You get the feeling the fate of Allardyce and Walsh are probably quite closely linked as Allardyce was very much Walsh's man.

I think Allardyce might need to perform this season but also have a bit of luck with the wider managerial merry go round in the summer in order to get a crack next season. I think he will do the first. the second is anyones guess.

I think it would be pretty harsh on him getting someone else in during the summer because improvement takes time.

Lets hope for another 3 points tomorrow and a better 2018!

26 Dec 2017 14:14:57
One thing is for certain Toffeebuds and that is that an apology was definitely not required. I'm old school (ok very old) and over the years I have learnt that whilst debating providing nothing personal was mentioned or no one crosses the line then apologies are never really needed.

As for big Sam it may surprise you to know he was not my first choice, my choice would of been Raffa. I wanted Pellegrini instead of Koeman. The fact none of my 1st choices made it has not stopped me giving total support, and having total belief in the chosen management team, (my beliefs did not cover caretaker management) .

Everybody is aware of Sams lack of experience at a big club, and I would not have him as my choice to look after my families silver, but at the end of the day he is in charge and should get the respect that is due of anyone in that position. If my next door neighbours great aunty Nellie was to become our manager I would also give her 100% support. At the moment on this forum we have more negative posts about our team than we do positive, even when we win the negative comments far out weigh the positives.

After todays game you will see the negatives creeping back in, and by the time our next game is due, it will be hard to find something positive written about us. No wonder Ed002 see's Everton fans as an embarrassment to the club, because with all the negativity that's exactly what we are.

Hope to see you in live chat later on.







 

 

 
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