Everton rumours 15346

 

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02 Jun 2017 18:59:57
I see Chelsea are back to their old tricks hazard costa and now courtius all talking lukaku back to Chelsea story up reminds me of the John Stones saga EFC should do a statement saying how unwelcome and unprofessional it is that Chelsea let their players get away with it and we should also report them to the FA.

Agree6 Disagree2

02 Jun 2017 22:26:24
Start at £100m and work our way back to £65m. If we actually get anything over £65m I'd take hand and all. Buy a striker and players who actually want to play for Everton. Good luck to him. Was last season much better for Stones. Slightly, got into Champions league. Whereas we let in 11 less goals and pocketed £35m from selling him.

Just like Stones Everton F. C. will get by fine without Lukaku.

02 Jun 2017 22:40:28
lots of players have learnt that the grass isn't greener once you leave us stones will be sold within 3 years and have to go to a midtable team to rebuild his confidence and as good as Lukaku is he will soon learn the same thing if and it is a if he returns to Chelsea he will become an impact player as costa is first choice (I think costa will stay 1 more season then return to AM) and can lukaku afford to miss nxt season with a world cup coming up I think not the boy needs to think carefully about his nxt step and we need to stand up to clubs like Chelsea who let their players continually talk about other clubs players.

02 Jun 2017 23:03:39
Not very often I completely disagree with a fellow BLUE. But John Stones will become the heart of city defence under guardioa. City had an off season but for the first 1-12 games looked unbeatable which stones played a major part.

Regards to Lukaku if costa stays Chelsea will not sign in. Why would they sin a player for 60+ million to be an impact player. Come on it makes no sense.

Stones and Lukaku are well on there way to becoming world class operators I wish them al the best.

I think stones will captain England one day. Not that I'm bothered about England just the way I see his future going. As for Lukaku his records speak for them self at 24.

I agree Everton will go on but take nothing away from either player.

03 Jun 2017 06:52:50
jimbobchaddy did u watch stones much last season he made lots of mistakes which led pep to drop him I hope he does go on to captain Eng but he won't be at city rumours are rife they are looking at central defenders this summer as for Lukaku if he goes to Chelsea which is where he wants to go where does he fit in they already have a 30 million pound striker sat on the bench and costa wants to go back to AM who can't sign players until Jan so does lukaku stay and force a move through in Jan or leave now and sit on the bench hoping AM come in for costa in Jan.

03 Jun 2017 09:31:17
I am with Jimbo on this. Stones is 23 years old. He has been capped for England at 21 I think. He is still maturing and center backs usually reach maturity about 25. He is learning his trade. but at the very top. He is also playing for a manager that wants to change English football to play it from the back rather than the hoof it out type that is very traditional in England. I only see David Luiz at Chelsea as being a ball playing center half and think he is by far the best center back in England. But I would see the likes of those 2 together as a frightening prospect for bringing the ball out of defence. As much as I like Williams and Jags and Mori, how many times do you see them play a great forward ball. How many times do you see them recieve the ball under pressure and remain calm? Stones makes mistakes yes. He was not bought for last season. He was bought for the next 10 seasons. Look at his level at 23. Imagine what he may achieve at 28? I remember Man United buying Gary Pallister as a raw center half who made mistakes. Remember what he achieved. Yes I am sorry Stones left us, but I have no doubt he has talent and ability and will probably achieve a lot in football. And yes an England captain cert in 3 seasons!

03 Jun 2017 10:17:26
Degs do you mean luiz is the best cb or stones? Personally i think that alderwiereld is the best in the league by a country mile. Again personally, I'd take Cahill over Luiz.

03 Jun 2017 10:38:20
The first priority of a defender is to be able to defend, and just because the guys only 23 there is no guarantee he will get any better. As for Luiz gets caught out a lot but because he is a dirty bugger no one gets passed him. Type of defender I like personally. By the way Stones will never become England captain, you need a leader on the pitch, not someone who panics when the pressure is on.

03 Jun 2017 15:15:22
Playing from the back! I remember a certain very recent manager trying to do that at Everton. Look where that got us. Will Pep improve next season? He would certainly want to. Otherwise he'll be gone. If he succeeds with this style of play it will probably change the premiership big time.

At Everton we bought Williams with Stones money and have £35m left over. 11 less goals and finished 4 places higher. Last season we played from the back. This season was a no nonsense defense and if my memory serves me right we ended with the 5th best defense record. Compared to last season where we had came in at 16th defensively.

I love watching Stones play when it works for him. He was actually my favourite player when at Everton. It's probably my favourite thing to see a player with great skill and finesse such as Stones bring the ball up the field from the back.

As much as I love that I love getting better results more. Fact is we improved our defense by 11 premier league places by signing a player almost 10 years older than Stones and still pocketed £35m. That is fact and is more important than looking pretty to me.

03 Jun 2017 15:44:22
City fans like Stones a lot and think he just needs a better defender than Otamendi next to him. Their chairman also picked him out for praise just the other day. If they buy someone experienced or Kompany can stay fit, they certainly expect him to prove a good buy. Short-term, we got a good deal but as Degsy says, they didn't buy him for the short-term.

03 Jun 2017 16:15:58
I meant Luiz is the best. But I accept that Van Dijk and Alderwierald are also excellent. Williams does a job for us and yes with Gueye and Davies emerging we are stronger defensively. But I wouldn't put that down to Williams being a better player. Williams is certainly a hoofer compared with Stones. I have said this before, I was involved in Youth football for some years and I personally believe that English football went backwards with an obsession of putting the ball in row z when yound defenders were under pressure. Spain and France had a more pragmatic approach and started cultivating the idea that youngsters should be allowed to make mistakes and improve their ball skills. Stones is probably the 1st English defender to come through the English system that has followed suit. I expect more defenders to slowly start improving over the coming years. It will be a gradual change and that is because there are still ex pros who believe in the row z approach. Have a look at some of our kids coming through. Some have 10 times the ability on the ball of the likes of Williams. Both Van Dyjk and Luiz have great ability on the ball and yes they sometimes get caught in possession like Stones. But Southampton did ok in a Cup and Chelsea won the league. You don't do either of those without good defending.

03 Jun 2017 17:51:58
Degs I couldn't agree more. hence England not winning s major trophy in how many years. they don't keep the ball as well as cultured footballing countries.

As youth term football we are miles behind Spain France Brazil Argentina. But slowly making strides John stones is the perfect example.

I for one would never begrudge anyone trying I play the beautiful game the right way. But I also appreciate the fact that certain players cannot and are still top class defenders. It is all opinions but I'm with degs an have strong belief in this is what England and Everton need to do to progress.

I think it's unfair to compare to Martinez as we now have gana gueye in midfield.

03 Jun 2017 22:14:54
Exactly my points Jimbochaddy. The Martinez comparisson just shows that Martinez could not turn a bunch of hoofers into silk purses. I accept I was his biggest critic. However, he was trying to get us to play possession football without penetration. The point that I think we both agree on is that we won the World Cup in 66 and have really only got close once again with Gazza and co.

I think I can say that overall, the continental defenders have had bags more ball skills and control than the average British defender. Yes there are exceptions, but look at Ajax and their production line of ball playing defenders. The row z approach is great if you have a less skilful defender, but the objective is surely to develop skills and be able to defeat the opposition with football.

That means if you have 11 footballers on the pitch, you have a better chance than if you have 11 hoofers. So any equation in between, means the more cultured players, the more chance of winning. Brazil have also used this approach for donkeys years.

03 Jun 2017 23:25:14
Comparison to Martinez is simple. Played similar enough to Pep last season. We replaced Stones with Williams. I'm not comparing the players but am comparing how the team done in both seasons which is fair imho as Williams took Stones place.

I checked and we were 15th in defense last season. 6th this season. With no Stones and a different style of play from what Pep is playing. I'd rather finish 9 places higher in the defensive table. Don't care how pretty it is 15th playing from the back with Stones will never be better than 6th with Williams. That's just the way I see it.

You can dress it up as much as you want. At the end if the day its a results business. I for one am far happier with how we are this season. Don't understand how anyone would not think so.

04 Jun 2017 10:07:13
Agree 100% with you too NBTB when discussing results business and Pep pretty football etc. I agree totally with you on that. But I for 1 would not be very happy to win like eg Wimbledon used to. Yes it is possible to be efficient and win games without too much flair as the likes of Tony Pulis teams or Wimbledon. Or Denmark or Greece when they won the Euro Cup all those years ago. Very defensive and relying on a few flair players up the other end of the pitch. I guess it would be ok in the short term. But the conversation was really about John Stones making mistakes and costing Man City games. That's what started this banter. I would ask how many games/ points did John Stones cost Man City last season? How many games was he involved in whereby he helped create goals? You are 100% right that a defenders first objective is to defend. However, these days the continental teams are leaving us behind because their attackers can defend and their defenders can attack. They are all comfortable on the ball. The reason John Stones is highlighted with his mistakes is because he is ahead of his development. He has been a regular for Everton, Man City and England. Yet he is only 23 now. He has been around for a few years now. He is developing. If he is coached to hoof it out and only defend, he will never develop into the top footballer some of us think he will develop into. He may well be a fine foof it out defender, but never progress further. If you watch Man City playing with him, he is a focal point for the build up of play. He touches the ball more times than most other players. He gets it, passes and moves into space to get it again. This is why they have so much possession and why when England have played in the past, we have not been able to get the ball off the opposition at times. Because they have better footballers throughout the team. not just in attack. I am passionate about this view. It starts with 7 year olds playing and their Dads on the side lines shouting "Get rid of the ball! Hoof it out! " That culture then follows all through to the Premier League. At Ajax, Barcelona etc the coaches say, " play your way out of trouble! " They allow the kids to make mistakes until they learn how to "play football". Its tru the other team cannot score when the ball is in row z. But it is also true that if the ball is in row z, you will never learn how to control it. John Stones is 23. He is way ahead of usual center backs. He will be a fine player. He may be a future England captain? He will certainly develop further and become a top footballer who can play center back, right back, left back, holding midfield, forward midfield, wing back and possibly even center forward. Because he is a footballer who can play football. Sorry to preach on mate, but Williams can stop other playing better than Stones at the mo. But in about 2 seasons, Stones would have Williams sat on his fat arse every time. Because Stones is progressing and Williams will always hoof it out. I know this sounds like I am a Stones fan. in reality I am a football fan. The great Howard Kendall and Colin Todd to some extent were both excellent defenders at periods in their careers who could play football out from the back. But at a much older age. Enough said.

{Ed001's Note - it is not about hoofing it out, it is about him being utterly unable to defend. Stones can't create either, he dawdles on the ball to little effect as his passing is simply not very good. I have no idea where you get this nonsense about him being a focal point from either, I wonder if you have even watched them play to not know who a certain David Silva is? Stones has poor positional sense, he ball watches, is bullied easily and takes too long to make decisions on the ball to be top class. He can improve all those things, but it is very unlikely he will ever be anything other than a mistake playing in a good team that gives him protection. Reminds me of Mascherano playing at the back for Barca, it is not because he is a good defender that Barca got away with it, or because he was good on the ball, it was because the rest of the team ensured he barely got tested.}

04 Jun 2017 11:19:19
Have to disagree with you too then Ed001 on a couple of points. Firstly I also think Mascherano is a fine player. 136 Argentina caps, 40 Under 23/ 20 caps. 6 Championship medals, 2 Champions League Win medals, 2 Eufa super cups, 2 world club cups. World Cup runner up. Many other cups in domestic leagues. An average of over 1 a season wherever he has played. Not just at Barca. I actually can't believe that you consider him a poor player in a team that keeps him "looking good" because he is surrounded by other better players. No poor player achieves that sort of career even if they are playing with the best other 10 in the world. However, I would agree that Stones positional sense is suspect at the mo and am sure Man City will work on that and his concentration lapses too. that's why I say 23 is still a young age for any center back. Not many have played at the top level for 4 years, achieved over 100 Premier games at 23 and been capped by England at the age of 20 years young! Certainly both Barcelona and Man City value the players and I would say both those clubs are endeavouring to play football in the most attractive way. But hey, it is all about opinions and I respect yours and NBTB's. I just don't agree with this particular point. As for Silva, of course I have watched him and I have also watched Stones being a focal point when they have tried to draw out opposition who are sat back with 10 behind the ball. I guess only time will tell. I will wait for your "told you so" post. Be sure you will get one from me if I am right and still kicking around!

{Ed001's Note - Mascherano is a poor defender, I don't care how many medals he has. If you think that it doesn't happen that dross can be made to look good by the team around them then you fail to understand what a team game is. If you don't think dross can be carried, try explaining why John O'Shea has so many medals, despite being dog turd.

Stones has never been a focal point, I don't know why you keep banging on about it, you can ask Guardiola if you like, but he will tell you the same. The defenders are good on the ball to draw out the opposition, not to be any kind of focal point to the play. If you think that is being a focal point, then it shows you lack understanding of the game to be perfectly frank.}

04 Jun 2017 14:26:13
I guess I have no understanding then. Just like the managers who have continually picked Mascherano and Stones. Nor the boards who have sanctioned the money to buy and pay the wages of the 2 players we are discussing. Nor all the other clubs who would want those players. Nor the brilliant players kept on the bench whilst the 2 players are continually playing and the International managers that have continually pick them. But you Ed001 who doesn't care about the 31 medals of winners or runners up that Mascherano has in his trophy cabinet does. Sorry mate I believe the other guys because I think they know what they are talking about. Plus any player with 31 medals who is still playing and winning in my mind has something. And before you say it, yes half a dozen of the 31 are micky mouse medals. But that still leaves an awful lot of trophies won. Ed, football is all about opinions, and I accept ours our different on this. But if you are going to insult me with comments about lack of understanding the game, I will respond. don't tell me a player with 31 medals is crap and expect me to believe you. I believe the metal of the medal! All the best Degsy.

{Ed001's Note - Mash was not bought to be a defender. If you are just going to go on about medals then it shows you haven't a clue about a TEAM game. There are ten other players on every pitch and no team in history has ever had 11 top class players. Again no understanding, just shallow nonsense. The only insult is you wasting everyone's time with this. Every time you type you just reinforce my point about you not understanding.}

04 Jun 2017 16:35:36
And every time you say 31 medals = a crap player? I can't agree. But I would say don't give it out if you can't take it Ed. Insulting peoples intelligence is what everyone does when they are losing a debate. I have seen you do it with others. that's what people do when they are losing. resort to insults. I won't do that but I will point out that you are doing it.

{Ed001's Note - whatever lad - you have no point as usual. Take what? That you are talking out your rectum as usual? How many medals has John O'Shea? He has won the Prem playing at left back, would you say he is a good left back? Obviously better than Leighton Baines in your mind, as Baines has won f all. You are just wasting my time and I am done with this, you fail to see that medals won as a team do not make you an individual of quality. It is pointless discussing this with you as you always fail to see anyone else's point and just wear everyone down with your repetitive posts arguing the same point with no more insight than you had previously. Zidane won less medals as a player than O'Shea, so clearly O'Shea is better according to your insane thinking. Brazil's defence in the 60s and 70s was hopeless, but they still won World Cups. I really do not get how you can not understand anyone else's point ever, but you do this every time. As for losing, what are you on about? There is no losing, how can I lose and how can you lose? More ridiculous by the post you get. You have no argument but you will stand and witter on anyway. We can go all day on this, but you offer no argument other than someone has won medals so they must be great, which is clearly bollox and idiotic. I can run out a huge list of dross that have more medals than great players, and prove how stupid your blinkered viewpoint is, but why waste my time when I know you are always the same and never listen to anyone else? Convo over.}

04 Jun 2017 21:55:24
I agree with your point totally Ed001. Had a a good few posts on here last week making the same point as you. I was saying Lescott was not particularly successful individually. People were saying he won a premier league therefore he was automatically a success. I was trying to make the exact same point as you above but most people say 'a he won a premier league medal of course he was successful'.

They are entitled to their opinion and in a way I can see where they are coming from. But the way I see things is totally the same as you above Ed001. Love the example of John O'Shea to Baines. Its a pitty the likes of Matt Le Tissier and Baines as mentioned above never got the recognition they truly deserved and then you have the likes of Djemba Djemba with a premier league medal.

{Ed001's Note - I could list a huge list of players who weren't that good that have many medals. Bill Shankly used to say it takes 8 to carry the piano and 3 to play it. Meaning that there were really only 3 players of true class in a team and 8 workmen. While that is a simplification, it is still fairly true today.

Then you look at class like Frank Worthington, who many at the time considered on the same level as George Best, and ask what has he won? If you don't play for the best team, you don't win the trophies.

It is hard work sometimes NBTB, people forget it is a team game and that the best 11 players don't make the best team, because that works on FIFA etc. In one off games the best individuals have an advantage, but the league season tends to be won by the better team. You only have to look at Ferguson's final title winning squad to see that! The individuals were not good enough but the team was.}







 

 

 
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