Everton Banter Archive April 28 2016

28 Apr 2016 21:26:25
Eds, blues just curious (and naive on this so don't be too brutal) been a blue for almost 40yrs here and obviously have observed the game change dramatically into a financial beast. So on that note how is managing different to say 30yrs ago? I guess what I'm getting at is. is a manager fully accountable for team selection, tactics etc? Ergo there is such a large background/ training staff that they must have some say or some influence. in which case the manager will arbitrate and consider their opinions also. especially when trying to address problem areas visa vie the way we have played this year may not solely lie at the feet of one man? Just a thought. be gentle boys just trying to look at things from a different perspective. my own personal views aside.

{Ed002's Note - A great question and I am sure others will have plenty of ideas as well. Certainly the game is faster, the players fitter and more technical. Diet has changed, players are looked after a lot better than they were. Money has increased in England allowing a pick of players from a larger pool - so culture, settling, language etc. play a part. Coaches (with three exceptions in England) are now required to having been formally trained and to have qualified. Europe is the norm for travel for many more clubs than it was, and that brings different needs. A little from the top of my head and I am sure others will contribute.}

28 Apr 2016 22:28:52
I agee with both above Jcl1878 and Ed002. I'm only old enough to remember back to the 80's so compared to you two my experience of days before that are basically non-existent. Although my ways of looking at the game is old fashioned.

Hate the way players earn so much. As of late how young they are earning such vast sums of money. What intrigued me about your comment was the manager and it reminded me of something I thought of recently enough.

Martinez has obviously been in for a lot of stick lately. I've given him some but here's the but. If he had a plan B in his game plan then I think it would be possible for him to do better. He is a decent enough manager in the grand scheme of things.

I mean he is at a higher level of management than your Sunday league games. It is his ignorance not to deviate from his game plan that is his downfall imho. If he only tried different game plans and changed things to a different game plan there is at least a chance he could improve things.

Looks like its too late now. Simple things like how he stood by Howard for so long I'll never understand. I'm all for sticking by players and managers who all go through bad patch's but he definitely overplayed Howard when it was obvious to everyone he was our weak link.

Don't get me wrong. That was only one small aspect of his downfall. That negativity spread imo. Martinez is a decent person and I hope he doesn't suffer anything horrific because some supporters are getting worked up over everything.

If he only considered using a plan B, C or D things may have worked out totally different. That's my reading of it anyway. I know most probably won't agree.

{Ed002's Note - Great post NBTB - lots of rationale.}

28 Apr 2016 22:30:08
In my view the manager is fully accountable.
If other staff are raising the issues that I see such as poor substitutions, never any left side balance, over reliance on Lukaku, not dropping Tim Howard, no plan B to name a few, then the manager isn't listening or is surrounded by yes men.

28 Apr 2016 22:37:49
My own opinion is that 30 years ago it was a sport.now it's a buisness.kids break thru,play 3-5 games and are under going negotiations to go from yts money to 15k a week.its crazy.ho many great footballers in British football alone,from the 60's and 70's had to buy and run a pub to make ends meet,or sell valued international caps.and they were ten times the player that we watch day in and out nowadays.but unfortunately it's more important to look good and have image rights,than go in for a 50/50 challenge against a Norman (bite yer legs) Hunter type player.it's a scrupulous buisness now and managers are given half a season or are sacked.

28 Apr 2016 23:40:11
In regards to money/ wages, does anyone think there will be a point where it becomes too much to be sustainable anymore? Wages are ever increasing, so how long before we see someone earn £1 Million a week?

29 Apr 2016 06:32:40
Cheers for the response chaps. I've been so wrapped up in laying blame at the managers feet, forgetting just how massively the game has changed and just how much influence ALL the staff have. E. g. First team coaches, junior coaches, fitness coaches etc. my point being its much much more difficult to manage in the modern game and with reflection if the manager has support and buyin from his staff then he's going to take a specific tact etc. probably not making the point i'd like to. but hopefully u get the just of where I was going with my question.

29 Apr 2016 08:27:05
Agree wid NBTB Martinez seems to be a really decent guy so I hope he doesn't get nasty abuse and fans going on the pitch to confront him EFC fans r better than that.

29 Apr 2016 08:40:38
Some good posts here, however the old saying The Buck stops here does to a certain extent stand true. Ultimately no matter what standard you manage at you have second opinions from your assistants but there can be only one decision maker not a ballot on each and every matter that arises in a game!

29 Apr 2016 08:45:32
Nbtb and wakka. good feedback there. thoughtful insights.

29 Apr 2016 09:07:34
The manager is responsible and must never be given the chance to off load blame end of!

If he doesn't like something he is the only one who can change that something . if someone is not pulling their weight he tells them. if the team leaks too many goals he should know about it without being told. if the advice he has chosen to take hasn't been right for the team he should change his advisors.

If the manager is flogging a dead horse that's his fault alone!

29 Apr 2016 18:57:46
Our culture mostly likes to lay the blame at an individual, I would also mention the role of the press who at times dig and dig until they get their pound of flesh. Martinez by all accounts is a good organiser from grassroots upwards but his Achilles heel it seems is his lack of ability to put theory into effective practice were the senior team is concerned. To me he is a good coach that needs a good Manager.

28 Apr 2016 18:42:48
I think at the game on Saturday the fans should be behind the team no matter what we think he's the manager until he's sacked and the face of our great club. We don't need to be the angry mob chasing them. He will eventually hang him self with the points tally at the end of the season. And I think it's a real shame if the atmosphere in goodison is toxic because all the young blues will think that's ok to act like that a game when it's not going our way! Life's like that! We need to get behind everyone St the club till the end of the season.

28 Apr 2016 19:20:42
Agree. Atmosphere has been poor all season due to failed expectations, no wonder player talk about leaving, let's remind them we exist.

28 Apr 2016 17:20:57
I don't know who the manager will be next season. I would love it to be koeman but I'd also be happy with hughs. Saying that I will still support everton if martinez is still here next season.

It's been a disappointing few seasons and I'm as frustrated as the rest of you. However I will always be a blue even if we end up in the conference. not that we will

And I think we're all forgetting that there's so many positives going on in the background that will make us more competitive in the future.

I am actually looking forward to the summer. Who ever is manager will strengthen the squad and come next season when we start winning all will be forgotten.

28 Apr 2016 17:39:08
Well said Anomblue. The bigger picture is bright. Agree 100% with every word of your post. Support the club no matter what is the essential thing.

28 Apr 2016 17:43:45
WILKINS MICAWBER, Charles Dickens the eternal optimist.

I like your post, I suppose we do have plenty to look forward too and I'm glad I read this. I've been depressed since the Derby but there is hope as you pointed out.

28 Apr 2016 20:47:42
Anomblue what a great post. I don't need to say any more.

28 Apr 2016 16:31:37
I've just read eds02 post about the club has no obligation to speak to the fans at this time. While that is correct. The club are still prepared to to take £s of our money out of our pockets and still keep us in the dark.

{Ed002's Note - Keeping you in the dark about what? There is nothing to say at this moment.}

28 Apr 2016 16:38:52
Manager situation. If like you say they will sit down at the end of season why not tell us.

{Ed002's Note - Why would they tell you anything.}

28 Apr 2016 16:48:50
I'm not having a go at you ed. its not just me I think you'll find a few thousand people would like to know.

{Ed002's Note - They will be doing more harm tahn good as they sour relationships. If the would wait it will give the club the opportunity to take a measured approach.}

28 Apr 2016 16:59:05
I don't for one minute mate think that any protests should take place. I hope they don't. But you have to agree it's frustrating when people spend money and don't know what's going on. We are reading more in the papers than the official cite.

28 Apr 2016 17:24:09
To be fair what's in the papers is utter tosh. Just be patient there's no need to make hasty decisions. That's what happens at poorly run clubs.

28 Apr 2016 14:00:07
Would anyone agree that when Everton come to appoint a new manager, there are 2 factors to deal with. Firstly, the obvious is to return the club to competing for top 6 placing and then to top 4. Secondly, with Klopp being next door then to restore bragging rights in Evertons favour.
In both cases it won't be achieved overnight and the fans patience will play an important part in any success, irrespective on who takes on the job.

28 Apr 2016 16:44:54
You first factor should read competing for the Prem as champions, not top 6 or 4.

Bragging rights has nothing to do with it, why worry about that lot across the park, focus on ourselves.

I agree with what you say about it taking time though.

{Ed025's Note - we aspire to get in the top half at the moment frank so lets not run before we can walk..

28 Apr 2016 11:56:31
Can't believe someone said they read about Mark Hughes as boss in the Sun newspaper. Why are you reading that paper I the first place never mind the day after everything that's happened in the last 2 days. Shocking!

28 Apr 2016 12:40:03
We could do worse than Hughes but we could also do better.

28 Apr 2016 13:32:43
Think it was The Mirror mate and the guy has decent track record of getting things right (I personally hope this time he's wrong! ) .

28 Apr 2016 11:33:28
Too many fans have stereotypical views about certain managers (like Hughes, Allardyce, Pulis, etc. ) and don't appreciate their qualities.
I'm not saying they would be a "good fit" for Everton - who can be sure about any manager - but to dismiss them out of hand because of their "image" seems imho to be wrong.
Likewise, the idea that a "big name" manager is guaranteed to bring success seems naive.
Of course, someone who's been a winner previously is attractive, but even those have had failures - even including being sacked - along the way.
Whoever is Everton manager is obviously important for on-the-field performances and results, but it's off-the-field progress (finances, debt, stadium, academy, commercial deals, sponsorship, community, etc. ) that will define if Everton can not only aspire to, but also actually realise long-term success.

28 Apr 2016 12:02:16
some people get really excited by a foreign name that they have never heard of and they cannot pronounce Sid.

28 Apr 2016 13:35:28
If Martinez is still here in November then 'Allardyce, Pulis, ' would be options for sure .

28 Apr 2016 11:08:25
I just read Martinez's press conference. He say's the board are right to judge him, yes Roberto, every Manager is judged. I can't believe he said he should be judged on how we perform against the big teams? seriously.

My belief is that in his first season he walked into Goodison and promised the players that he would change the style and play attacking football. The players and the fans were on side and all was well.
But then when the results start going against us you realise that this is not the way, there has to be a balance.

It's like eating vanilla ice cream for 11 years (Moyes) then someone comes along and gives you chocolate mint chip. (Martinez) MMMM this is nicer and so much better, but then after a year or so of that you realise that maybe the chocolate mint chip is not quite as good as it seemed at first and so you lose faith in that.

His first season was never him being a good Manager, it was the change that the players embraced and nothing else. We were all sucked in by the change and it hasn't worked.
I'm dreading the board deciding to keep him.

28 Apr 2016 11:36:58
For most fans, it's not so much "ice cream" as "I scream" with Roberto Marinez!

28 Apr 2016 11:53:59
Martinez also said he shouldn't be judged over the last 3 months but the last 3 years! That being the case the results are still the same we are going backwards!

28 Apr 2016 12:43:40
Yes heard this and believe he tripped himself up and made himself look stupid, but he does that quite often now.

28 Apr 2016 13:40:28
Martinez is selective about his record in the PL full stop.

He never recounts the WAFC relgation, however he is always available for comments on his WAFC FA cup win!

28 Apr 2016 08:52:14
I have seen good and bad posts on here. I have had support for some of my posts and criticsised for others. I guess that's the way it goes. One thing that does occur to me is that when RM came in, I had lots of flack for my support of Moyes. Don't get me wrong, I don't particularly want the guy back, but I do think he is a top manager and will have success if given the chance somewhere. Some things that were disputed and stated to me when I was saying RM was nowhere near as good as Moyes. Moyes has held young players back. ie Stones and Barkley in particular. in retrospect. has not RM put too much pressure on these young footballers and made our reliance on them too great? Another one was that Moyes was too negative. I believe that his football was based from the back, but at least we did have players running at the opposition. under RM the ball seems to go all over the place. everywhere except in the oppositions penalty area. Yes we have scored more goals. mainly due to Lukaku and Barkley. but in my opinion, the football we have played under RM has been so inferior to what we did under Moyes. I know that lots of the supporters including ED025 do not want Moyes back. For this reason alone, I have to agree getting him back will only split opinion further and create problems. As for Sparky Hughes. he has done a reasonable job at Stoke. However, he inherited a great squad and yes has added one or two good players. That does not make a geat manager.

{Ed002's Note - As an aside, one thing Mark Hughes is very good at doing is attracting players to the club. He is a quiet man but he is very clear in his expectations for the club and for players joining and players find it easy to listen to what he has to say. He is very measured, but firm, in how he deals with the team, stepping back for a while before commenting where necessary - thereby avoiding saying things that could later be regretted. Might be a very good choice for Everton if he were interested in leaving Stoke.}

28 Apr 2016 09:26:37
Please God not him.

{Ed002's Note - Unless you can provide some sort of sensible rationale as to why Mark Hughes should not be considered you are doing no more than making yourself look like an idiot with posts like that.}

28 Apr 2016 09:28:48
Where is all this criticism coming from for Hughes? I'm starting to see where Ed002 gets his views on us blues fans from. He wouldn't be my number one choice but what's our chances of getting a better manager?

I've seen a comment below that he was sacked plenty of times. Don't agree with this. As far as I know he was sacked twice. Firstly at Man City which was inevitable because of their new owners wanting immediate success and hadn't the patience to stick by a young learning manager.

He was also sacked by QPR which was a bad time for him but wasn't he only there for a very short while? Like a year or something. He managed quite a few clubs and done reasonable well imho.

His first club Blackburn he done extremely well imo. Was doing ok at Man City and wasn't given time as I said. At Fulham was also doing ok and resigned, not sacked. Only there for one season. QPR didn't show him in good light but was there for a short period also. A manager needs a at least 3 seasons to get a proper reading of where he is at imho. Our current manager proves that after taking us backwards since his first season.

At Stoke Hughes has that and is improving them. He would also be an improvement on our manager. On that bases I would take him. As I said he wouldn't be my number one but realistically can we get a better manager? Realistically is the key word there. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who would be better realistically.

Obviously I'd love a big name manager who has experience of winning trophies but can we attract such a manager now when there may be other big clubs looking for a manager?

I was a big supporter of Moyes but in all honesty I'd rather Hughes at the moment. He is settled at Stoke and doing a great job. His first managerial post where his tenure is not being interrupted. He could be a fantastic manager with time. He always conducts himself well and had first hand view of Sir Alex's managerial skills. Surely that can't be a bad thing.

28 Apr 2016 09:31:30
I think Mark Hughes is a step even further backwards. I can't believe the board have even mentioned his name. It will show a complete lack of ambition if that's the case.
I'd take Moyes any day over him. We don't want another chancer at Everton that's for sure. Either go for gold or get Moyes back, but no more gambles on unproven Managers.

28 Apr 2016 10:28:24
The managerial debate is totally subjective I like you Degsy was a strong supporter of Moyes and like you agree that it would probably be too divisive if he were to return. Mark Hughes although a good manager with some great qualities I just don't think he would want to leave Stoke to come to Everton to start again rebuilding a team. I know a lot of supporters bang on about having a big name manager that has won trophies but if you actually look at the teams some of them have managed a lot of them have been lucky with things falling into place at just the right time. Just look at Mourinho as an example, had he not met Robson who knows how he would have fared. Mourinho basically worked his way up from the bottom and during the early part of his management career was not a sought after manager. What he was and probably still is, is a fantastic innovative coach and I think that is what gave him the edge over his rivals. All managers have to start somewhere and be given a chance. its alright having a big name but if they can't get the support staff they worked with when they were successful or they don't inherit a team full of great players they can mold then no matter how big there reputation is there is no guarantee of success. Appointing RM was a gamble that did not pay off, I think that is actually down to his tactical nous not being good enough. I would be happy for us to pick an up and coming manager again, but they would need to be very tactical astute and have a very strong support team around them.

28 Apr 2016 09:59:28
I don't like Hughes and not sure if I would like at the club. However he did start the process at City and was credited with attracting quality players there.

He left them in a great position amd he will be doing the same again at Stoke. Would I like someone with more succes? Yes but it would be better than RM and DM for me.

As for Moyes . Nothing said here has made me change my mind on how boring his team tactics were.

28 Apr 2016 14:45:00
Ed002 I said it about him because what has he done nothing that's what and over the last few weeks I've seen you do what your talking about. I've said it enough times mourinio will not be Everton manager pelligrini won't be Everton manager but you never explained so do you look like an idiot.

{Ed002's Note - I have read your post three times. I have no idea what you are talking about at all - you appear to have lost teh ability to communicate in writing.}

28 Apr 2016 07:40:21
Well if there's no club announcement before RMS Press Conference at 9 am it looks like he's here for Bournemouth.
Big mistake Bill, not going to be nice on Saturday but you wanted it and I got a horrible feeling you will get some flack as well.

We will not be ignored.

28 Apr 2016 11:33:51
Well said Mushy.
EFC have the worst PR imaginable. Any decent organisation with their finger on the pulse would see Sat coming and try to avert the publicity.
Most clubs would have dealt with this some time ago.
As for the Ed who is so critical of EFC fans he must appreciate that we are the most under achieving club there is and the comments are born through pure fustration .
I am sure not many clubs with ambition would be happy with Mark Hughes .
now we have a billionaire owner of sort it would be a kick in the teeth to be told he is to manage Everton .

28 Apr 2016 03:36:14
I have been hearing about Kieran Dowell for a while now and been watching some of his highlights (I'm from Norwich so don't get to the games) this kid looks special, is he as good as the highlights make him out to be?

28 Apr 2016 16:57:51
Craig, I'm from Norwich as well. If you are on facebook look for East Anglian Blues group, we arrange minibus trips up to Goodison as well as away trips.

29 Apr 2016 05:09:06
Thanks will be interested as soon as I'm back from Thailand thanks mate.