19 May 2016 23:04:02
In reference to below posts. BlueJohnUns you don't need to dispel any myth about Allardyce or Pulis. Your obviously missing the point. The point is they are good managers without winning anything. You criticise Alldardyce for having a lot of losses yet later on criticise Moyes for drawing too much. Well the consequence of going for it unfortunately is you end up losing your fair share of them rather than drawing. Especially when you have a squad like Sunderland have.

So which is it? Moyes is wrong for having a lot of draws or Allardyce is wrong for going for a win and inevitably losing some of them? Allardyce hasn't had a proper spell at a team since Bolton. Only team he has in any way is WH and they finished no higher this season after spending a lot of money since he left. Are they better off now? Sunderland definitely are.

Didn't he finish in 4th with Bolton after taking them up from Championship? Newcastle were sacking managers for fun when he was there. He didn't get near enough time.

Pulis isn't the most attractive style of play but he gets a job done and was the first manager to figure out how to beat us 3 seasons ago. Everyone followed his example on how to beat us after that. Didn't see any foreign manager figuring that out.

I agree wholeheartedly with your last paragraph. A Klopp influence. He certainly lifted the spirits with them since he took over and is a very positive person overall.

Svenny I don't know where your getting them "" quotes about Koeman from? I didn't say them anyway. Simply making the point he is a good manager who hasn't won anything. 2 summers he lost big players and didn't lose the dressing room. Our own manager signed big players and lost the dressing room. Big difference there.

Koeman knew how to manage the squad and introduce new players and get them to perform to the best of their ability. Can't ask anything more from a manager imho.

1.) 20 May 2016
20 May 2016 11:07:50
Couldn't agree more mate. Can't understand the negativity that he attracts.
You only have to take a look at where Big Sams ex clubs (except West Ham ) are now to appreciate what a great job he does . As soon as he was appointed Sunderland boss I expected them to stay up. Loved his comment about John Stones too. No doubt he'd turn him into a much better defender.

2.) 20 May 2016
20 May 2016 11:07:59
1. Moyes IS wrong for going for draws

2. Allardyce cannot get consistency out of his teams

3. Finishing 4th one season doesn't make him Jesus

4. Pulis has his teams playing dull unattractive football and I wouldn't pay to watch them.

5. Crediting Pulis as the man worked out Martinez is not very rational. I'm pretty sure he'd lost one or two games before then.

6. Even at our worst we beat WBA anyway when Pulis was there so that's a pretty poor argument.

3.) 20 May 2016
20 May 2016 11:07:11
I didn't get involved in the first discussion, but just to agree with NBTB on some points. it is very easy to have a picture in your mind of a manager and how he works and his philosophy. Then remember successes and failures by him. My own view on this is that the whole club has to have everything fall into place and even the greatest manager in the world will not win things with bad luck. The infrastructure has to be put in place prior to him joining.

Scouting, youth policies, contract policies, even age limits on players and even how the players personalities interact. A great example of this and when everything comes together is Leicester City this season. Raniery is getting all the credit and he does deserve some. However, things were pult in place long before he arrived. Another example is Sir Alf Ramsey won us the world cup, yet was sacked 6 years later.

Harry Catterick was sacked by our famous club. The manager has to be in the right place at the right time, but the rest has to be already pretty well sorted. And that's where I get worried. I feel we have lots of these things sorted and Moyes had the infrastructure in place. I think Martinez came in and changed quite a bit and we now have a very unbalanced squad.

Moyes had a general youth policy and when he arrived, overhauled it adding plenty of youth. He continued with that and left a squad with a few older players that needed replacing within the next 2 years. Namely Cahill, Osman and Pienaar. Martinez arrived and replaced Cahill with Lukaku.

But Osman and Pienaar were never replaced. They just continued ageing and are still part of the squad. In fact he added Alcaraz, Kone and Barry to the squad. 3 players on their last legs. So we now have a first team squad with 5 players on their last legs. We also never effectively replaced Howard and we have our 2 most promising youngsters (Lukaku and Stones) being courted by just about every other club in Europe.

Back to the point. give me an organising, effective, future looking manager anytime. not one who comes in, makes a couple of big signings and looks to this season and not much beyond.

4.) 20 May 2016
20 May 2016 11:21:43
Hi BlueJohn . I think Bolton, Blackburn, Newcastle and Sunderland fans would disagree with you about Big Sam mate. If he was foreign he'd have a much better reputation.

5.) 20 May 2016
20 May 2016 15:18:35
Exactly Garyo. No one called him Guaranga for finishing 4th only you BJU's. Point was when he got time to develop Bolton he brought them from championship to 4th in premiership. Name another manager who done that. You don't seem to recognise what he done to achieve. Just put him down by sarcastically calling him Jesus for finishing 4th. If it had been Utd or Chelsea it would not of been much of an achievement. It was Bolton therefore a lot more complicated.

Since he left Bolton what have they done? Where are they now?

With Pulis you mention we were beaten once or twice before he beat us with Palace. True but he set the trend of HOW to beat us the end of that season. Since then everything has gone belly up for Martinez. It was Pulis who worked out how to beat Martinez system. Every team followed suit after that and Martinez had no plan B. Wasn't a foreign manager that worked it out.

Comparing Pulis with 2 different teams isn't rational. He doesn't have the same players at WB as Palace. So saying we beat him at WB doesn't mean he's a worse manager. Degsypulford makes a good point that all clubs are different. Which goes back to Allardyce having time with Bolton to get his structures in place. Same applies to Pulis and every manager imho.

If Moyes doesn't go for draws then inevitably some are going to be lost and still he gets blamed.

Are Palace and WH better off now after Pulis and Allardyce have left? Palace finished in 10th after Pulis took them over near the end of the season. They got him in to stop them getting relegated. Not only did he do that but he got them to 10th. Ok for a bad manager.

6.) 20 May 2016
20 May 2016 16:55:02
So you would want these two managers at Everton?

7.) 20 May 2016
20 May 2016 17:53:55
No, didn't say that. Was simply commenting on managers don't need to of won something to be a good manager. Wouldn't be totally against them either. Who knows what they could do at Everton? Would be a unique situation for them to be in compared to where they were before.

Said already Koeman would be my first choice.

8.) 20 May 2016
20 May 2016 18:30:46
Each unto their own. They're not my cup of tea but where would we be if we all thought the same ;) good debate though.

9.) 20 May 2016
20 May 2016 21:05:52
Feelings mutual BJU's. I enjoy a good debate and always respect other peoples opinion. As you say it would be a boring world if we all thought the same.